[EuroPython] Diversity of attendees

[Filip Kłębczyk]

Hello,

I have two points:
1. I'm curious what are stats regarding nationality/country of attendees.
2. I've noticed that together with this year edition there are 13
EuroPythons, where:
* 2 of them were located in former Eastern Bloc countries
* 11 of them were located in Western Countries

Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future?

In my opinion the conference that calls itself EuroPython (and for
example not WestEuroPython) should take that into account.

Regards,
Filip

PS. HINT: organizing conference in less wealthy countries usually (but
not always) also results in lower conference costs, in result making it
more accessible to those with "small pockets".

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

Post by Filip Kłębczyk
Hello,
I have two points: 1. I'm curious what are stats regarding
nationality/country of attendees. 2. I've noticed that together
with this year edition there are 13 EuroPythons, where: * 2 of them
were located in former Eastern Bloc countries * 11 of them were
located in Western Countries
Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level
of Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody
feeling responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that
problem in future?
In my opinion the conference that calls itself EuroPython (and for
example not WestEuroPython) should take that into account.
Regards, Filip
PS. HINT: organizing conference in less wealthy countries usually
(but not always) also results in lower conference costs, in result
making it more accessible to those with "small pockets".

I was wondering the same. Diversity in a cultural and geographic sense
is important. Especially in such a cosmopolitan & multicultural place
like Europe.

N.

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

Am 16.04.2014 um 06:41 schrieb Nicholas H.Tollervey

Post by Nicholas H.Tollervey
I was wondering the same. Diversity in a cultural and geographic
sense is important. Especially in such a cosmopolitan &
multicultural place like Europe.

Diversity (where women are one part of the medal) is a process and
can not be realized by-law or by-order.
Andreas

Not sure I understand what you're saying.

I'm certainly *not* suggesting some legal or mandatory process be used
to enforce something or another.

N.

[Andreas Jung]

Post by Nicholas H.Tollervey
I was wondering the same. Diversity in a cultural and geographic sense
is important. Especially in such a cosmopolitan & multicultural place
like Europe.

Diversity (where women are one part of the medal)
is a process and can not be realized by-law or by-order.

Andreas

[Martijn Faassen]

Hey,

Post by Filip Kłębczyk
Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future?

You're suggesting active outreach to Python organizations in Eastern
Europe to see whether they want to host EuroPython? I think that's a
good idea.

Regards,

Martijn

[Andreas Jung]

Hey,

Post by Filip Kłębczyk
Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future?

You're suggesting active outreach to Python organizations in Eastern Europe to see whether they want to host EuroPython? I think that?s
a good idea.

The selection process has been always open afaik. You need enough people
doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a proposal
by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference. There had been
conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
the last years?I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user groups
in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on completeness: the
2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known reasons.

Andreas

[Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė]

As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of proposals
in general at least in the beginning. So whoever was serious about
organising EP could do it.
Has this changed over the past years and is there any reason to believe
that proposals are being approved or rejected according to geografy? (I
wouldn't think so, but that's just me.)

Post by Filip Kłębczyk

Post by Martijn Faassen
Hey,

Post by Filip Kłębczyk
Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in

future?

Post by Martijn Faassen
You're suggesting active outreach to Python organizations in Eastern

Europe to see whether they want to host EuroPython? I think that?s

Post by Martijn Faassen
a good idea.

The selection process has been always open afaik. You need enough people
doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a proposal
by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference. There had been
conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
the last years?I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user groups
in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on
completeness: the
2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known
reasons.
Andreas
_______________________________________________
EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

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[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of
proposals in general at least in the beginning.

Then read this mail:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008195.html

Learn a bit how process was delayed and then how unexpectedly
requirements were announced. I'm tired to talk again, that there were
serious issues in process of choosing 2014/2015 organizers.

Regards,
Filip

[Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė]

Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
What is your point with all this, please tell.

Post by Filip Kłębczyk

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of
proposals in general at least in the beginning.

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008195.html
Learn a bit how process was delayed and then how unexpectedly requirements
were announced. I'm tired to talk again, that there were serious issues in
process of choosing 2014/2015 organizers.
Regards,
Filip
_______________________________________________
EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

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[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
What is your point with all this, please tell.

The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be
done in Eastern Europe.

You stated:
"So whoever was serious about organising EP could do it. "
I just disagree with that statement, by looking on my own negative
experiences and EPS knows why I have right to have negative experiences.
The question is do we want to dwell again into that or talk about future
EuroPythons as intended in the first mail? I prefer the latter.

Regards,
Filip

[Troy Howard]

I recently organized a conference in Budapest (Write The Docs EU). I can
confirm that it's a great city to hold a conference in. Cheap lodging/food,
lots of fun local culture outside of the conference, and easy to get to
from all over Europe. Also, I felt safe and welcomed there as a native
English speaker.

Most importantly, there is a Budapest-based company, Prezi, who has an
amazing events staff that help us organize our conference, has organized a
number of smaller conference in their own venue (~100-150 people), and is
also organizing a much larger conference (Craft Conf) in a much larger
venue (~500-1000 people, IIRC). They could definitely help EuroPython
succeed there.

I'd be glad to put the EuroPython organizing team in touch with the Prezi
event staff to discuss the possibility of hosting EuroPython 2015 in
Budapest.

Thanks,
Troy

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
What is your point with all this, please tell.

The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be done
in Eastern Europe.
"So whoever was serious about organising EP could do it. "
I just disagree with that statement, by looking on my own negative
experiences and EPS knows why I have right to have negative experiences.
The question is do we want to dwell again into that or talk about future
EuroPythons as intended in the first mail? I prefer the latter.
Regards,
Filip
_______________________________________________
EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

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[Steve Barnes]

Post by Troy Howard
I recently organized a conference in Budapest (Write The Docs EU). I
can confirm that it's a great city to hold a conference in. Cheap
lodging/food, lots of fun local culture outside of the conference, and
easy to get to from all over Europe. Also, I felt safe and welcomed
there as a native English speaker.
Most importantly, there is a Budapest-based company, Prezi, who has an
amazing events staff that help us organize our conference, has
organized a number of smaller conference in their own venue (~100-150
people), and is also organizing a much larger conference (Craft Conf)
in a much larger venue (~500-1000 people, IIRC). They could definitely
help EuroPython succeed there.
I'd be glad to put the EuroPython organizing team in touch with the
Prezi event staff to discuss the possibility of hosting EuroPython
2015 in Budapest.
Thanks,
Troy

Troy,

While Budapest would be an amazing location for EuroPython you have the
process backwards - The local python community in the host city becomes
the EuroPython organising team if the produce the accepted proposal -
there is no central team that takes EuroPython on tour.

Gadget/Steve

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I recently organized a conference in Budapest (Write The Docs EU). I can confirm that it's a great
city to hold a conference in. Cheap lodging/food, lots of fun local culture outside of the
conference, and easy to get to from all over Europe. Also, I felt safe and welcomed there as a
native English speaker.
Most importantly, there is a Budapest-based company, Prezi, who has an amazing events staff that
help us organize our conference, has organized a number of smaller conference in their own venue
(~100-150 people), and is also organizing a much larger conference (Craft Conf) in a much larger
venue (~500-1000 people, IIRC). They could definitely help EuroPython succeed there.
I'd be glad to put the EuroPython organizing team in touch with the Prezi event staff to discuss
the possibility of hosting EuroPython 2015 in Budapest.
Thanks,
Troy

Troy,
While Budapest would be an amazing location for EuroPython you have the process backwards - The
local python community in the host city becomes the EuroPython organising team if the produce the
accepted proposal - there is no central team that takes EuroPython on tour.

This will change to 2015. The EPS is working on a model that'll make
it much easier for local teams to make a proposal:

http://www.europython-society.org/cfp

In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international
work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team
providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing
institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly
reduce the risk a local organizer has to take.

We will follow up with more details in the coming days with new
blog posts:

http://www.europython-society.org/

If a local team is interested in hosting EPC 2015, they should sign
up to the blog. We will also post the final CFP on the usual mailing
lists, of course, and try to actively reach out to national Python
organizations, as well as volunteers for the work groups.

[Martijn Faassen]

Hey,

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international
work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team
providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing
institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly
reduce the risk a local organizer has to take.

Very nice!

An example of institutional knowledge getting somewhat lost is the
duration of conference thing I recently talked about -- when I did the
research on how the change happened, it's all a very logical step taken
year on year based on the previous year's conference, and at least some
people seemed not aware that it'd been 3 days for years before then.

Of course that's hardly a serious case, but I do think that
institutional knowledge you have more overview and therefore better
ability to step back and take stock once every while.

Regards,

Martijn

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Post by Martijn Faassen
Hey,

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international
work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team
providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing
institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly
reduce the risk a local organizer has to take.

Very nice!
An example of institutional knowledge getting somewhat lost is the duration of conference thing I
recently talked about -- when I did the research on how the change happened, it's all a very logical
step taken year on year based on the previous year's conference, and at least some people seemed not
aware that it'd been 3 days for years before then.

If you're looking for information on previous conferences, you
should check this page:

http://www.europython-society.org/europython

As others have already mentioned, the 5 day event is a result of
integrating the tutorials which were on separate days before 2011
into the conference. This resulted in much better tutorial attendance,
so the integrated approach was continued.

Post by Martijn Faassen
Of course that's hardly a serious case, but I do think that institutional knowledge you have more
overview and therefore better ability to step back and take stock once every while.

Sure, we could try having separate training days again, but then we
would also have fewer talks. Perhaps we could do a poll at
EuroPython 2014 in Berlin to see what the attendees think
about it.

Personally, I prefer to have fewer parallel tracks and a longer
conference - you get to see more interesting talks and there are
fewer overlaps.

Cheers,

[Javier Gonel]

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
What is your point with all this, please tell.

The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be done
in Eastern Europe.

The "should" in that sentence feels like forcing diversity IMHO.

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
"So whoever was serious about organising EP could do it. "
I just disagree with that statement, by looking on my own negative
experiences and EPS knows why I have right to have negative experiences.
The question is do we want to dwell again into that or talk about future
EuroPythons as intended in the first mail? I prefer the latter.
Regards,
Filip
_______________________________________________
EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

[Filip Kłębczyk]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com
Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
What is your point with all this, please tell.
The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be
done in Eastern Europe.
The "should" in that sentence feels like forcing diversity IMHO.

Seems you overlooked word "maybe" in the sentence. Here you go:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maybe

As you see word is connected with possibility/uncertainty; neither yes
nor no. How that relates to forcing sth?

Regards,
Filip

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of proposals
in general at least in the beginning. So whoever was serious about
organising EP could do it.
Has this changed over the past years and is there any reason to believe
that proposals are being approved or rejected according to geografy? (I
wouldn't think so, but that's just me.)

Most certainly not.

We would very much like the conference to move around in Europe as much
as possible.

Unfortunately, we did not have much choice in recent selections, with
only a single submitted proposal.

[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
Unfortunately, we did not have much choice in recent selections, with
only a single submitted proposal.

It would be good to tell a bit more what caused that others didn't
submit proposals.

Well if someone is interested how things looked here is e-mail I've sent
to PSF on 1st of July 2013 explaining what actually happened and how
things looked like.

tl;dr

Originally the Call for (organizers) proposals was supposed to be
published in Autumn 2012 with deadline for proposals in Spring 2013.

It ended giving Call for (organizers) proposals in mid-May 2013 and
deadline in mid-June 2013. Many other issues along the way.

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
Dear Board of Python Software Foundation,
I'm writing to you because I believe that these kind of things shouldn't pass silently and I also believe that this story should be a warning for others that every part of Python community should be respected and treated seriously - especially if we all want to keep status of that great community Jesse Noller was talking about on PyCon US. The mail is about how we tried to apply for organizing EuroPython and how we hit the wall several times during last two years.
1. January 2012 - Fabio Pliger informed on EP public mailing list that no one applied for organizing EuroPython 2013/2014 and he is looking forward for concrete and serious proposals [1]
2. Beginning of March 2012 - on our behalf ?ukasz Langa (which for long was and is still active in PyCon PL Program Committee) talked with Fabio Pliger on PyCon US '12 about possibility of still applying for EuroPython 2013/2014. Fabio asked to contact him and Laura Creighton about details. We've sent the e-mail on 11th of March.
3. April 2012 - after a month of waiting we've finally got the answer that it is too late to apply for EP2013/2014 and instead we should apply for EP2014/2015. Laura Creighton suggested for us to talk on EP2013 about applying for EP2014/EP2015
4. July 2012 - On EP I was informed by Fabio that there will be a call for organizers in Autumn for EP2014/EP2015, so then the details will be provided. Some of us arrived day before EP to help a bit Italian organizers.
"The new board will put out a call for proposal for 2014, with a requirements specification during the fall of 2012. A deadline for bids will be in the early spring of 2013. Organisers of Europython 2014 will be expected to take part in the organisation of the 2013 conference, to learn more about how to arrange a conference on this scale."
5. Autumn 2012 - no CfP, no details
6. 6th January 2013 - I've asked Fabio when the CfP is released, because it is already January and it was supposed to be published in autumn previous year. I've got answer that in _a_few_days [3][4]
7. 8th February 2013 - I've asked again about CfP and no one even cared to answer briefly how the situation looks like [5]
8. 22th February 2013 - I've asked (this time privately only Fabio) about when I can expect call for EP2014/2015 and if there is a way I can help.
9. 5th March 2013 - I've received reply from Fabio that he can send me a raw material of EP proposal details and with my help this can be prepared earlier. I've agreed and asked to send me the raw document. The document wasn't send by Fabio. [6]
10. 6th March - 15th May - silence again
11. 15th May - CfP (CfO) was announced
I'm sorry, but after so much time of waiting, me and the others had a right to not treat seriously EPS to release any CfP (CfO) in 2013 at all. For example I've made my own plans for May and 1st half of June (several trips including one longer to Finland which was planned in April (booked the tickets) and I was busy preparing the launch of two conferences websites). When the CfP came I was really angry, because I've realized I won't have time to apply for it and gather all the people again to send a serious proposal).
"Current situation is really hard. It's after the deadline, we have currently busy period and I would have to gather people that previously wanted to organize EP once again (normal PyCon PL team is smaller as it is smaller conference - 200-300 attendees expected this year). So I don't think it is realistic to prepare such proposal sooner than around then end of July. I am also not sure if extending the period would be fair to other groups that applied. It is hard situation overall."
and
=================
"Hi Marc,
I am aware of that fact, because I cooperate with many people from abroad (yes also when organizing conferences). If someone states that I've denied to help on important matter when I clearly offered help and confirmed it, then I don't know what to think about it (answering "yes" to a question doesn't mean "no"). Just imagine for a minute that you are in my shoes and after months of waiting, you hear such things. I guess you would probably also feel annoyed, by the whole situation.
1. If our proposal would be accepted, then the other groups that have sent proposals have a right to feel that the EPS board favoured us and changed the rules to help us.
2. If our proposal wouldn't be accepted, then some of us might feel that extending the period was only a way to please us in this situation and to end our claims.
The situation is really hard and if the period will be extended then maybe the decision about proposals should be left to some neutral entity such as PSF or people that aren't involved in what happened here. There is this old saying "Nemo iudex in causa sua" (from Latin - no one should be judge in his own cause)."
=================
1. Why 11th March 2012 was too late to apply for organizing EuroPython 2013 when 15th June 2013 wasn't too late for EuroPython 2014.
2. In January Fabio stated that CfP will be announced in a few days. What was EPS board doing all that time when few days turned into 4.5 months?
---
I was involved in organizing different events since 2004 and I'm aware and understand that it is hard piece of work and requires a lot of effort. I know how sometimes it is hard to keep all the deadlines, but the thing that concerns me when looking at the whole case is how some part of community is not treated entirely seriously by EPS. In our opinion it shouldn't be that way.
Best regards,
Filip
---
[1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2012-January/008016.html
[2] https://ep2013.europython.eu/blog/2012/07/08/change-board-europython-society
[3] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008195.html
[4] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008196.html
[5] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-February/008214.html
[6]
=======
Data: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 18:15:24 +0100
Nadawca: Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com>
Adresat: Fabio Pliger <fabio.pliger at s3srl.com>

Hi Filip,
Yes. We had a meeting few weeks ago but seems that we are all too busy
to write up a document with all the decisions made and the related
issues. If you want to help I can send you the raw material and you
could try to put a document draft that we can use to speed up things and
relase it as soon as we can.
What do you think?

Yes, please send me but that might be a problematic right now - some of
us are going to PyCon US and I doubt that we will manage to do a lot
work from there (especially that making phone calls to venues from there
will be not much possible).
Best regards,
Filip
PS. Btw. Please send e-mails to my gmail adress
=======
[7]

If you
remember well I've asked if you and your team wanted to help us
preparing the CFP but you said no.

[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by Andreas Jung
The selection process has been always open afaik.

Then where are all the proposals shown that were sent for 2014 and 2015
hosting? Where are the criteria that decided German proposal was better
than the one from Belgium. In my opinion process is not open and
transparent.

Post by Andreas Jung
You need enough people
doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a proposal
by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference.

There wasn't for a good reason. I recommend you to talk to Marc-Andre
Lemburg, maybe he can explain you how the situation looked like. Also I
recommend you reading the mails on this mailing list since June 2012.

Post by Andreas Jung
There had been
conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
the last years? I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user groups
in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on completeness: the
2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known reasons.

Andreas, I think we are talking about Europython here, not about being
happy that other conferences take place in Eastern Europe.

Regards,
Filip

[Andreas Jung]

Post by Andreas Jung
The selection process has been always open afaik.

Then where are all the proposals shown that were sent for 2014 and 2015 hosting? Where are the criteria that decided German proposal was better than the one from Belgium. In my opinion process is not open and transparent.

Ask EPS.

Post by Andreas Jung
You need enough people
doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a proposal
by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference.

There wasn't for a good reason. I recommend you to talk to Marc-Andre Lemburg, maybe he can explain you how the situation looked like. Also I recommend you reading the mails on this mailing list since June 2012.

Please what?

Post by Andreas Jung
There had been
conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
the last years? I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user groups
in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on completeness: the
2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known reasons.

Andreas, I think we are talking about Europython here, not about being happy that other conferences take place in Eastern Europe.

No idea what your point is.
I suggest you speak to EPS directly.

Andreas

[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by Andreas Jung

Post by Andreas Jung
The selection process has been always open afaik.

Then where are all the proposals shown that were sent for 2014 and 2015 hosting? Where are the criteria that decided German proposal was better than the one from Belgium. In my opinion process is not open and transparent.

Ask EPS.

I've checked EPS website and it seems some issues with openess are now
fixed. It's interesting however that on EP2013 Marc-Andre Lemburg spoke
to me about German and Belgium proposals and on the website it is stated
that there was only German proposal - very, very strange I would say...

Post by Andreas Jung

There wasn't for a good reason. I recommend you to talk to Marc-Andre Lemburg, maybe he can explain you how the situation looked like. Also I recommend you reading the mails on this mailing list since June 2012.

Please what?

I reported the problem to EPS in previous year and also to PSF. I find
satisfying the fact that EPS finally tries to improve things and I look
forward to it. However, there weren't any apologies for the last year
unfair situation nor for the offensive talk of one of EPS high
representatives.

I think if someone from EPS has said:

"Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"

then it really is as offending as if someone would say

"Women wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"

Only difference is type of discrimination (ethnic/gender).

Regards,
Filip

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Filip,

all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and
2014:

http://www.europython-society.org/cfp

Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are
doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice.

FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is
aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have
EuroPython in their location.

Thanks,

[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Filip,
all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and
http://www.europython-society.org/cfp

Yes, I've wrote in one of previous mails that this is now public, where
was it year ago in July?

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are
doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice.

What false accusations? That you said:
"Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"

These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you
shouting it in the hotel lobby? Or you don't want to remember.

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is
aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have
EuroPython in their location.

As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity
it wasn't that way year ago.

Regards,
Filip

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Filip,
all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and
http://www.europython-society.org/cfp

Yes, I've wrote in one of previous mails that this is now public, where was it year ago in July?

We had wanted to make the Berlin proposal public sooner than that,
but we had wanted to put up an updated proposal after the venue
changes compared to their original proposal. We never received
an updated proposal, so then eventually went live with the original
one.

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are
doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice.

"Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"
These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you shouting it in the hotel
lobby? Or you don't want to remember.

Yes, those false accusations. I have many Polish friends and don't
have any doubt that any one of them can organize a EuroPython
conference. In fact, Ewa, the PSF event organizer is from Poland
and she's managing PyCon US, a 2000+ attendee event.

I know you were complaining about the CFP for 2014 and was trying
to mediate a bit after you had approached both Fabio and Giovanni
in rather inappropriate ways. I apologized to you for the delays in
the CFP process, but in the end, the mediation effort didn't work out.

You had missed the CFP deadline for 2013 and complained. You then
missed the deadline again for 2014 and complained.

Instead of putting so much effort into complaining, why don't
you redirect your energy into putting together a preliminary
proposal for 2015 or a future year, so that you are prepared and
only need to tweak it a bit to meet the final CFP requirements ?

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is
aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have
EuroPython in their location.

As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity it wasn't that way year ago.

It's a learning process for all of us. We make mistakes and learn,
just like everyone else in the community.

[Dinu Gherman]

Hi all,

I appreciate the recent vivid discussions on this list around important topics like diversity. Many interesting opinions have been given about how to improve the EuroPython conference experience to an even wider target group and make it more balanced along multiple vectors. Some seemed to have been formulated under a combination of stress and/or frustration. This might be expected in the context of a complex project like organizing a conference for 1200 people, where there are many people, opinions and interests involved, and often contradicting ones, but not always clearly communicated.

While all this can be certainly improved I would hope to see this happening in a way that doesn't inject previously accumulated frustration of various stakeholders into the currently ongoing project, namely making happen what is likely going to be the largest EuroPython conference organized so far ("large" as in historically-grown, not as in think-big). I'm afraid that we're moving into this direction which might reduce people's interest in attending this conference as well as the current organizers' motivation for doing what they do in their spare time.

So I dare remind us of the fact that we do have, in fact, two mailing lists, Europython and Europython-Improve with the following current descriptions taken from their Mailman listinfo pages below. I feel like we have stretched the term "diversity" enough to start reconsidering continuing this discussion on the Europython-Improve list, revitalizing it, much as it deserves.

Best,

Dinu


About EuroPython

A mailing list for discussing and planning EuroPython, the European
Python community conference. EuroPython 2014 will be held in July 2014
in Berlin. See the EuroPython website for details:
http://www.europython.eu/

To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the EuroPython
Archives.

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


About Europython-improve

This is the place to work together on making EuroPython happen each year.
Expect around 15 emails each week, with some periods of not so much traffic,
and periods of lots of activity as particular things need organising.

To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Europython-
improve Archives. (The current archive is only available to the list
members.)

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython-improve

[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
We had wanted to make the Berlin proposal public sooner than that,
but we had wanted to put up an updated proposal after the venue
changes compared to their original proposal. We never received
an updated proposal, so then eventually went live with the original
one.

What about the proposal from Belgium you mentioned on EP in the lobby?
So there was no proposal or what?

Post by M.-A. Lemburg

Post by Filip Kłębczyk
"Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"
These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you shouting it in the hotel
lobby? Or you don't want to remember.

Yes, those false accusations.

I never record talks with other people, but will have to use sound
recording device next time talking with you or ask for some neutral
witness, because otherwise you easily deny the facts.

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
I have many Polish friends and don't
have any doubt that any one of them can organize a EuroPython
conference. In fact, Ewa, the PSF event organizer is from Poland
and she's managing PyCon US, a 2000+ attendee event.

Good, that you changed your mind about Poles. I appreciate that.

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
I know you were complaining about the CFP for 2014 and was trying
to mediate a bit after you had approached both Fabio and Giovanni
in rather inappropriate ways. I apologized to you for the delays in
the CFP process, but in the end, the mediation effort didn't work out.

Well if you are calling mediation shouting and insulting in the lobby,
then congratulations for your sense of humour!

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
You had missed the CFP deadline for 2013 and complained.

I haven't complained about CFP 2013 - we were only asking about
possibility to apply. So you are making false statements here.

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
You then
missed the deadline again for 2014 and complained.

Interestingly everyone missed deadline in 2014 and only Python Verband
which you are active member and candidate for chair in last polls (not
chosen) didn't miss anything. If everything was so perfect, why EPS
considered moving deadline further, but then changed it's mind about the
idea? It shows that something wasn't all right.

Post by M.-A. Lemburg
Instead of putting so much effort into complaining, why don't
you redirect your energy into putting together a preliminary
proposal for 2015 or a future year, so that you are prepared and
only need to tweak it a bit to meet the final CFP requirements ?

I'm currently putting my energy to make PyCon PL better than last one. I
haven't considered applying for organizing EuroPython after such "good"
experiences from 2012/2013 with EPS.

Post by M.-A. Lemburg

Post by Filip Kłębczyk
As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity it wasn't that way year ago.

It's a learning process for all of us. We make mistakes and learn,
just like everyone else in the community.

I have a feeling that this change was a result of controversial process
for 2014 CFP. If I would sit quietly maybe EPS wouldn't feel a need for
change.

Regards,
Filip

[Carina.Haupt]

Hi,

even if I respond to an older mail, I wanted to address some questions here.

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: EuroPython [mailto:europython-
bounces+carina.haupt=dlr.de at python.org] Im Auftrag von Filip Klebczyk
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. April 2014 11:56
An: europython lists
Betreff: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Hello,
1. I'm curious what are stats regarding nationality/country of attendees.

This information were not collected in the CfP I think. Also not the gender.

2. I've noticed that together with this year edition there are 13 EuroPythons,
* 2 of them were located in former Eastern Bloc countries
* 11 of them were located in Western Countries
Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future?
In my opinion the conference that calls itself EuroPython (and for example
not WestEuroPython) should take that into account.

This is taken into account by the financial assistance program. Next to supporting especially, women, students, speakers and contributors of the Python community, we also take into account the origin country, even if this is not as explicitly stated as the other attributes.
Thereby we actively consider that EuroPythons main target audience should be European citizens, not just West-European citizens, especially since the alternatives there are less (just as you stated). We do this exactly due to the reason that we want diversity in the conference.

I hope I therewith could clarify that we already address the problem and do not start a big discussion about financial aid. ;)

Best regards
Carina

Regards,
Filip
PS. HINT: organizing conference in less wealthy countries usually (but not
always) also results in lower conference costs, in result making it more
accessible to those with "small pockets".
_______________________________________________
EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

[Filip Kłębczyk]

Post by Carina.Haupt
I hope I therewith could clarify that we already address the problem and do not start a big discussion about financial aid. ;)

I think we all can agree that financial aid is a positive tool to make
more diverse conference in terms of wealth status of attendees. But in
my opinion it's not the most effective solution. It's a bit similar like
with problem Lynn Root pointed.

If there would be a lot of women submitting and passing this years
reviews, there wouldn't be discussion about lack of gender diversity
among speakers. The source of the problem is described in the NY Times
article to which Lynn pointed. So to counter that problem several
solutions were discussed (more active reaching PyLadies groups,
convincing speakers that have multiply talks to limit the number to one
in result freeing slots to fill agenda with more diverse speakers).

I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse
in terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think
the better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I
think the biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result:
1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless
of wealth status
3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could
receive financial aid or improving other areas of conference

It's really simple logic.

Regards,
Filip

[Andreas Jung]

Post by Filip Kłębczyk
1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of wealth status
3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive financial aid or improving other areas of conference

We discussed that already - why bring it up again?

Ansdreas

[John Pinner]

Filip,
<snips>

I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in
terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the
better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the
1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of
wealth status
3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive
financial aid or improving other areas of conference
It's really simple logic.

For once, Filip, I agree with you! Huzzah!

All the best,

John
--

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Post by Aistė Kesminaitė-Jankauskienė
Filip,
<snips>

I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in
terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the
better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the
1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of
wealth status
3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive
financial aid or improving other areas of conference
It's really simple logic.

For once, Filip, I agree with you! Huzzah!

The EPS board agrees on this as well.